Flange Assembly: From Qualification to Proven Competence

Simone Wilson

Flange connections are among the safety-critical fasteners of an industrial plant. In turnarounds, thousands of connections have to be opened, tested and reassembled within a few weeks, while many participants have to work under high time pressure according to the same quality standards. In Germany, a certificate confirms basic assembly knowledge. But is this sufficient or is common standards needed for practice that do more than prove basic knowledge. What at first glance seems like a special topic in maintenance is an example of challenges that concern the entire process industry: securing skilled workers, uniform quality standards and cooperation across company boundaries. How this can be achieved is what we talk about today in the IDT Podcast, which provides new perspectives and fresh impulses for industry and sealing technology. With me in the Studio Studio is Christian Knollmann, Maintenance Leader at Braskem, a leading global manufacturer of thermoplastics and petrochemicals. The German site in Wesselingen is home to parts of the European production and the European Technology Center. Welcome, Mr. Knollmann.

Christian Knollmann

Thank you very much for the invitation.

Simone Wilson

I would also like to welcome Daniel Bauben, Managing Director of ChemCologne. ChemCologne is an industry network that connects companies, research, public authorities and other partners in the Rhineland and promotes cooperation on future topics. Hello Mr. Worben.

Daniel Wauben

Hello and thank you very much for letting us be here.

Simone Wilson

Yes, it's nice to have you here. My name is Simone Wilson, I'm C.E.O. of the sealing specialist IDT and I'm happy to be able to lead you through today's conversation. Yes, normally it always starts a bit softly for me, but because I believe that the topic is also very, very promising today, I would just jump right in. And Mr. Knollmann, since you have the practical experience, just ask, what is it like with large shutdown projects? What do you think are the central challenges?

Christian Knollmann

From my point of view, every standstill, no matter how good the planning is in advance, but every standstill always holds unforeseen events and always has surprises in store. And at the end of the day, it is also what distinguishes the standstill and also distinguishes each standstill from the other and also makes it interesting for all stakeholders.

Simone Wilson

If you look at such a project again and you can already say that it is a project, because it is not business as usual, for those who are perhaps not so deep in the matter, what does it all come together? So I know, especially assembly teams, some of them are huge, but what other factors are still essential?

Christian Knollmann

Ultimately, it is the dimension. So, if you think about it, the chemical industry is actually characterized by the fact that you don't actually need that many personnel in the standard daily routine because the plants are highly automated. Even working in a fully continuous process as a rule, such a standstill is also challenging in this respect, because suddenly, let's say, factor 5, factor 10 additional. There are personnel in the plant and you really turn the entire plant inside out, so to speak, take it apart and then put it back together again. Many different trades are involved and the whole thing is simple, because it is, let's say, on average every 5 to 7 years, which has become a bit more flexible recently, also an unusual occurrence that is not an everyday occurrence.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, But I could imagine, with preparation and follow-up, maybe 5 to 7 years are not such a long period in between. So, how long is there such an after-effect and how long do you have to prepare for it?

Christian Knollmann

Yes, aftermath in any case, at least a year, right? So classically at the end you have the punch list of topics that then stood out at a standstill, but were not so urgent that they had to be done at a standstill, but are done afterwards. For us, for example, planning a shutdown always starts at least 2 years in advance?

Simone Wilson

Yes, that means 5 to 7 years is not such a long period of time. I had now indicated at the beginning, flange connections are among the safety-critical connecting elements of a system, they may not always pay so much attention to them even in maintenance, but in practice it is also shown again and again that errors occur during assembly. What exactly is the reason for this?

Christian Knollmann

So, the faults that you observe and can see, on the one hand, are faults that, let's say, are visible. At the end of the day, a flange check is carried out, right? Then there are classic faults: not centred seal, lack of lubrication, wrong material, whether bolt or seal. You can see that quite well in the end. But there are also many faults, which are really only visible during assembly, no. That means damage to the sealing surfaces out of tolerance or offset between the individual flange blades. These are actually the ones that address the issues, no.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, and what does that mean in concrete terms for downtimes, for safety and costs?

Christian Knollmann

The effects are immense, aren't they? If you think about safety, at the end of the day, depending on the material or medium involved, what pressure it is, leakage size can really lead to extreme scenarios such as fire, explosion. Environment, environmental effects are of course self-evident. At the end of the day, any unwanted leakage is not allowed, right? Should always be avoided in principle. That is the safety aspect. On the other hand, the costs that come with it are even if a leak is noticed even before you have taken over the actual hazardous substances again. This means that in the lead check with nitrogen or with air or other non-hazardous media, it is still the case that this costs immense time, because partial plants or entire plants have to be taken out of operation again in order to ultimately rework and that simply costs time and thus automatically money.

Simone Wilson

Now you've just described a bit of what kind of assembly errors you see. Before that, of course, there are also a lot of criteria that ultimately pay off on leakage or not leakage. But assembly is the last link in the series.

Christian Knollmann

Everything comes together, right? At the end of the day, of course, every flange connection is laid out, designed, the material for it is put together, but at the end of the day everything comes together, exactly in the assembly. And that's why the assembly is really critical to success, no, or even special, i.e. with one of the most important factors at the end to ensure the functionality of a flange connection.

Simone Wilson

And we are here today because there was an initiative to deal with precisely this topic, because it is also the case that many operators are of course familiar with these challenges and it seemed or still seems obvious to simply think of the topic a little bigger, and that is what you and other companies have done. So, you then asked yourself, no, why alone, if it can't also be done together. And now I'm looking at you, Mr. Wauben, you run ChemCologne, a regional platform for the chemical industry in the Rhineland. In doing so, you also bring together companies that are normally in competition. And this topic of flange assembly was a topic that was also discussed centrally in a working group. What was the specific reason for you to take up this topic and push it further?

Daniel Wauben

So, we do a wide variety of working groups at Camp Cologne, we take care of the competitiveness of the region. It varies completely. We have one on the topic of communication, for example, but also very technical ones. Working groups, such as the topic group or the flange assembly working group, we actually had it many years ago, then it fell asleep a bit. And in 2023, Christian approached me and said, listen, we have a topic here at Braskem, that could also be a topic for many other companies in the region on the topic of quality control for flange connections. Then I said, yes, sure, great, play it over to me, write down a few thoughts about it. I'll put it into the network and listen to what the other companies think about it. And so I got a lot of feedback very quickly, I noticed that there is a critical mass that would like to exchange ideas on the topic. Then we did it for the first time at Brasscam, were also surprised or not surprised, but overwhelmed because we had about 30 companies at one table that came together on the topic. And then we just took a look. so we played the balls back and forth and simply exchanged ideas on the topic and it came out that it might make sense to meet more regularly. So other working groups, for example, we have them once a quarter, then we agreed that we would do it every six months and this topic then developed from this exchange, so that a hard core came together and worked together on this topic.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, and how do I have to imagine your role in this or the role of Camp Cologne?

Daniel Wauben

Exactly, so maybe it's my personal background. I'm a trained or studied economic geographer and of course I have relatively little idea about such a very technical topic as flange connection, I'll say. So I'm already dependent on the input of the specialists in the companies and in this case Christian acknowledged, ey, we're a member of a team at Camp Cologne, why don't I use this platform? So I'm actually the recipient of these inputs and try to just put them into the network to sensitize the antennas to whether this is a cross-industry topic or not a cross-industry, but cross-company topic where the others are also interested. So I'm kind of as or we as Camp Cologne are the spider in the network that tries to bring the individual players together on the topic. So the real impetus, it actually came from one of our member companies, but that's actually not unusual, isn't it?

Simone Wilson

Now to you again, Mr. Knallmann. So apparently you felt a pain that was stronger for you than for many others, or you asked yourself, let's see how the others feel about it. In other words, that you thought beyond your own company boundaries, looked beyond. How did that come about?

Christian Knollmann

That was simply the interest in an exchange of experiences. We were a young team, peppered with really experienced people, also internally, who prepared the standstill for 2024 and there was the mere thought that what we had come up with would simply be shared with others again as part of an exchange of experiences. What is the approach in terms of quality assurance, what is done and just as Daniel says, in the end the interest was overwhelming. No, we were over 30 companies that were represented, no. even our largest meeting room, which can be expanded by such a small part, was bursting at the seams at the end of the day, no. But you could tell that the response was really overwhelming and also the interest in exchanging ideas about this at the end of the day and sharing your experience.

Daniel Wauben

Maybe hooking in again, you shouldn't forget that we are in the largest chemical region in Europe, that's what we always call ourselves Camp Cologne, also no, that's our claim and it's relatively good there or if you look back, we were 23, no, we were already in a crisis and I think it's easy for the companies to say, I only need to drive a few kilometers and really meet with a concentrated expertise of colleagues and don't have to travel to Berlin, Frankfurt or something. So the advantage we have in our region is that we can bring many experts together relatively quickly with relatively little effort on the topics.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, now again on the way back, you both said, so the response was overwhelming. What do you think was the thing that led to everyone being so interested in the topic or that you said we really needed it?

Christian Knollmann

Yes, I think everyone saw the need in principle and was really interested in exchanging ideas about it, sharing their experiences. And you also noticed relatively quickly. That there is a really big common denominator at the end of the day, that the basis is ultimately there and also that you then take the idea further, that you really noticed the interest, yes, let's exchange ideas about it, let's take another look at which topics might still be relevant, building on quality assurance and flange connection around the topic of flange connection. No, because at the end of the day we have this semi-annual meeting, where expert lectures are now interspersed again and again. Around the topic of flanges at the end of the day, right? And the initiative was the idea from the very beginning, because it was simply noticed that many companies make really great efforts with regard to this quality assurance and at the end of the day the differences are marginal, so that in the end there was really a basis for creating a common safety culture at the end of the day, across company boundaries. At the end of the day, it is comparable to what B.G.R.C.I. is doing with Vision Zero, that you really say that safety is the focus, that is what concerns us all, that is not debatable and that, based on this, you try to increase safety at all plants together.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, so the exchange of experiences is one thing. But now it was also a matter of setting concrete standards. I would be interested to know your role and then perhaps also your perspective afterwards, whether that would have been possible without, I would say, a platform like Camp Cologne. But first of all, let's get back to your role, Mr. Bauben.

Daniel Wauben

So with us, over the, let's say, meetings, such a hard core, let's say, had established itself, who wanted to deal with the topic in more detail. And I think that was that, that it came together, that these were the 4 companies that were also behind it in the end or also behind it as an impetus. But we also always reflected that in the working group, no. So the 4 companies started the elaboration, independently. So there was in the process, we as Camp Cologne were also more in the background, you have to be honest. So it was with their own initiative that the 4 company representatives then started, also reflecting back into our working group again and again and then at the end we might come back to the conclusion later that this is not a closed shop of the four, but also like to find imitators who want to join, no.

Simone Wilson

Yes, and then again the question, the topic of platform, so would it have been possible without such a platform as Camp Cologne, wouldn't it?

Christian Knollmann

No, probably not, so that was also in principle the idea that if it is to work in any form, it has to run via the Camp Cologne platform.

Simone Wilson

And the reason for this, so what are?

Christian Knollmann

Certainly a lot of it is based on competition, no. That means that the different companies are or may not be, but in mutual competition and that in principle you can also create a neutral platform with it, no. We also thought about how we could ultimately build up the whole thing, whether we should develop our own certification system or something like that and at the end of the day that was ultimately the most efficient and in principle probably the only possible way, no, that you then go through Camp Cologne, which has the common linchpin and then also comes together through it.

Simone Wilson

So that means, if I interpret it correctly now, there were also reservations from some companies as to whether this could work.

Christian Knollmann

Maybe not from a technical point of view, but in principle the cooperation, that you look at it, no, but in principle with the working groups that Camp Colon has already had so far, you actually really had great examples from the past, how you can then work together there, really leave the competition and completely out of it. No, so there are really only technical discussions, no more and no less, and that you also have a platform that has already shown in the past that working groups can really come to companies. cross-company, more economic yes initiatives.

Simone Wilson

Now they had just said, this is not a closed shop, for me again to understand, so 4 companies from the region have committed themselves to getting a standard off the ground, but there are basically more companies in the working group.

Daniel Wauben

Yes, exactly, so there are actually representatives of each company in the working group who are members of us. So you have to be a member of Chem Cologne to be able to participate there. As I said, the 4 companies were directly involved in the elaboration, but I think I also thought that was good, because I believe that if we had done this now with 2030 companies, we wouldn't be sitting here today. So that's why I think it's always quite good to have such a hard core once and maybe you can expand it gradually.

Simone Wilson

Yes, I would like to come back to this, Mr. Knallmann, you said that you had a relatively young team, no, when I asked what led you to look beyond the company's boundaries. If you look back now, what would you say, was the added value for you really for this concrete initiative of joint exchange and joint action?

Christian Knollmann

On the one hand, it is certainly a confirmation that what we have already thought about, no, that it is ultimately also in line with what other companies are doing, that on the one hand we are not demanding anything inadmissible, because of course our partner companies are also pivotal and pointed, which play a major role in this and at the end of the day also with the thoughts, also with the fears that we have, also in advance, that they are not unjustified, but that the answers with the measures we have considered are also the right ones and that other companies have already shown and achieved this in practice, so to speak.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, now you've just named partner companies, which are also particularly important for a standstill. Were they involved, so did they mirror that with them or did they first make sure that they concentrated on the hard core, i.e. what is necessary on the operator's side for the time being?

Christian Knollmann

Of course, the focus is on the operator side. but in the end, I'll say, at the latest in the context of onboarding or even pre-onboarding, that you have to pick up every partner company, also because playing along is really of decisive importance at the end of the day.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, now they had said, from the technical side, yes, that wasn't really a problem, I could say now, no, we all agreed on that immediately, but as I said, with large companies, there are still completely different issues involved. If you look again, what was the biggest hurdle, but maybe also, what should you not be discouraged by when you say from a technical point of view, this makes sense, how do I get the other hurdles out of the décor, so to speak?

Christian Knollmann

Of course, I would say that this is associated with a lot of commitment, but also that you are aware of this fact and really concentrate on the essentials. So, we really made sure that we focus on security, which should be the added value through additional security. And at the end of the day, we are based on official legal framework conditions and these are now being implemented again through the practical robust process that we have implemented. No, that doesn't mean anything, so what we do is ultimately based on the official and legal requirements and is an implementation of them.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, was that perhaps also something where you could support, then Mr. Wauben, so precisely because you said earlier, no, the technical, I'm out of it, but especially with these issues, where the affiliated companies or association are affiliated companies, the member companies with you, exactly, perhaps worry because they are in competition with each other, is that then also a central role of yours?

Daniel Wauben

Yes, so we make sure that we deal with topics that we are also allowed to deal with. No, so we are always clean under antitrust law. With that, with these technical topics, I think the inhibition threshold is relatively low. No, but I, I just think that it simply requires a certain amount of initiative, right? And Michelle, one of the Basell, Ineos and Braskem just showed the companies that and then just carried on, right? And and yes, so we, we are supporters, right? So that's what we, what, what, what we can deliver as a network, no.

Simone Wilson

Pioneers, but we'll get into the practical part right away. But are you a bit surprised, maybe how quickly it happened and what came out in the end.

Daniel Wauben

So yes, indeed, we have already had, Christian has already said, similar approaches at one point or another, some of which were successful, but some of which were not, no, especially when it comes to the standardization of train access controls in chemical park areas, you reach limits relatively quickly or have we already reached our limits and here was relatively, so very quietly above all, because I came in principle I noticed the beginning, the initiation, where the 4 companies put their heads together and then a few months later I basically only got to finalize, no, where it was also about the formulation of the final document. So in principle I was only there at the beginning and at the end and the interim was completely silent and so that was very good and very proactive. So you can say that was best practice, which we have not experienced in other places in the, yes in the purity, right?

Simone Wilson

Yes, but that's nice. So maybe you can learn something from that, how the process went at that point. Yes, then let's take the leap into practice, let's dive into everyday plant life. So I had now identified it for myself, that this pain that was there was a lack of a common and clearly defined level of quality that can also be translated into practice. I then thought, well, naively I could ask now, isn't that already covered by the flange assembly training, you just said, according to DIN EN 1591 4, no, you might think. But maybe you can classify it again for me, i.e. what framework does the standard set and what else have you developed now?

Christian Knollmann

Ultimately, the standard defines the minimum standard at the end of the day, and with the process that we have described, which each company had already defined for itself beforehand, this is the implementation of it at the end of the day. That is, the implementation of the standard and the legal requirements, the official requirements, in everyday business and in practice.

Simone Wilson

And if you can illustrate this to me with a few examples, i.e. what exactly happens to these thoughts that you have had and these minimum requirements that you have now defined, how can I imagine that exactly?

Christian Knollmann

A core requirement from VDI 2290 is the use of trained personnel and that is basically where 1591 line 4 also starts, that in principle you also have a certificate that we use as a basis. So, that means that the certificate becomes independent of what we then do in addition, is the basic requirement. This means that every fitter must bring this certificate with him or her. This forms the basis and what we have done is then in principle again for it. By ensuring, by means of a theoretical test, by means of a practical test, that the qualifications that we expect and that we also need for our systems are also available, that we also ensure with this theory and practical test that they are available. Ultimately, that means again like a kind of effectiveness test of this. what we have actually already had confirmed on the Z or on paper via the certificate.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, so as a layman I would now say, O.K., I see that you have a driver's license, but show me that you can drive.

Christian Knollmann

For example, exactly.

Simone Wilson

And beyond that, it is the case that they have also determined, or that you can now enter that in the safety pass. Exactly, maybe they say something about that again.

Christian Knollmann

That was ultimately for us. We thought long and hard about how we would ultimately document this in order to make it accessible to other companies. We then also thought about our own certificate, but then again we didn't want to be the subject of possible certificate forgery again, as we saw in principle with the classic certificates as flange fitters and in the end it was also difficult to implement this in our own certificate. So it is the case that we considered it best practice or the best way to document this qualification check with a stamp, which we also agreed on how the whole thing should look like and also provided it with a validity of 5 years, so that you can refer to it without I say pouring the whole thing into your own certificate again.

Simone Wilson

And these 5 years are probably based on the norm, because the planting day training has, I think, also ne.

Christian Knollmann

Yes, ultimately something that is often found.

Simone Wilson

Now for my understanding again, you often find this combination of testing and documentation, especially with downtimes and assembly issues. So documentation is basically also important for the traceability of assembly, compliance with the steps. Why is that? Maybe you can tell me something about that again.

Christian Knollmann

So this combination, the decisive factor is the, let's say, the holistic view of the whole, right? It starts with onboarding, it starts, I'll say that you check the existence of the certificate, then you take the next step by really convincing yourself again in the theoretical and practical examination of the qualification and then the work in the field begins and that's where 3 essential pillars come together in principle. And the service itself, which means the assembly, but then also the material that is provided and in the end also the tools that are necessary for it. And the whole thing then ultimately leads to the QA in the flanges, that you really look at quality assurance on the mounted flange connection again and then log the whole thing and ultimately it's a holistic process.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, O. K., you had a certificate earlier and also your own certificate, I would be interested to know if there were any concrete suggestions from you when this topic of certificate was raised?

Daniel Wauben

No, we actually discussed it at the end, no, the suggestions came from the hard core just outlined that worked on the topic and we then decided it together. But I didn't come up with any, let's say, guidelines or anything like that, because I can't do that as, I'll say, as, as, as a networker, I'm further away from the topics than, than, than the people, those who are directly confronted with the topics. And I would do something to impose on Mr. Teufel something that I actually have much less understanding of than my colleagues.

Simone Wilson

On the other hand, such an outside view is of course sometimes quite good, because you may also know that it is a bit more difficult to create certificates or your own certificate and perhaps also have ideas about what alternatives there could be.

Daniel Wauben

Yes exactly, I think but we as camp colons are perhaps now also to create such a framework, maybe not the right, I'll say initiative or the right network, but I think it works exactly as we did it, collectively and so we are not the framework giver, let's say, the predestined one, the one there, the one who just manages to do it, but just lets it happen from within, I'll say.

Simone Wilson

But without them it would not have been possible, we have just heard that.

Daniel Wauben

Yes, yes, well, no, sure, so as a platform of course, but not as a framework provider.

Simone Wilson

I would like to come back to this, you also talked a bit about onboarding earlier and that it is ultimately about plant safety. Now the question for me is, because it has now been done in such a way that different companies recognize the same standard at the other company, what will really change in practice for you?

Christian Knollmann

We have, so let's put it this way, the security, actually you create substantial added value for all companies, because you have the opportunity to concentrate more on company-specific features in the context of onboarding, because you know that the principles are already in place, that in principle you can really focus on company-specific features that can really instruct, check and that you can start from a basis that is already there. With those who you then have, I would say, in front of you, who have then been audited at other companies, I think it also creates added value for the partner companies by significantly increasing the acceptance of such onboarding events, so that at the end of the day the individual fitters and fitters don't hear the same thing every 23 weeks, but in principle then really company-specific features are really in the foreground, right? So that you can then really start optimally with the respective company. And in the end it is really, you can be sure that those who are careful have really already shown this in practice and the whole thing is tried and tested, ultimately the qualification. Of course, every company has its own pipe clasts, its own torques, but not every company uses all forms of seals, of course, that you point this out, but also, I say, brings the locations closer, no, also the responsible on the part of the operating company and the most important interfaces, but also explained.

Simone Wilson

Now you said earlier that you focused on the operator side for the time being, in the preparation I thought a bit, so if I were part of the assembly staff now, I might be worried that the bar would be higher for me now and that I might not get such an assembly job so easily. What will change for the service providers or the assembly companies, the assembly personnel in concrete terms?

Christian Knollmann

So what we are demanding ultimately reflects 1 to 1 what was required in the standard and in the legal requirements anyway. In principle, we are not demanding more. So that means that no one really has to worry about that. That means that those who have the qualifications get independent proof at the end of the day that they can do it, no, which certainly makes them more valuable, more attractive at the end of the day. And staff who are not yet so well versed in the saddle also know transparently what the requirements are at the end of the day. So, it is also the case that we have determined for ourselves that it is quite possible to repeat once. In this respect, clarity and transparency have been created there as well. How is the implementation of the legal framework in operational practice and in everyday life really like?

Simone Wilson

So in the end, it sounds to me as if it really is already a qualification measure for the assembly personnel.

Christian Knollmann

We ask ourselves or convince ourselves in the end. of the qualification that is guaranteed on paper and should be brought along.

Simone Wilson

Now we have just said, O.K., there are 4 companies that have committed themselves to this standard for the time being, but in the end, if fitters who then worked for you go to other companies, then they ultimately influence the safety standards of the entire industry.

Christian Knollmann

Exactly, but at the end of the day, every other company is also subject to exactly these minimum requirements through the legal standardization to which we are all subject. What we ultimately did is that we also implemented our onboarding processes with other companies as part of the exchange of experience, so there were really more companies that have comparable onboarding processes and have already implemented them, that we have made sure that we have a common denominator, ultimately that we interpret the whole, i.e. the implementation together.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, but you had already said at the very beginning that the interest in this topic was very high, which means that there is a need, i.e. that the minimum requirement is right and good, but that in practice there is still such a disconnect somewhere.

Christian Knollmann

Yes, for a variety of reasons, it has been noticed that more and more in shutdowns, that flanges and flange leaks, because you want the very clear goal is that a flange connection according to the motto 'First Time Ride' is installed correctly and is technically tight in the long run at the end of the day. A wide variety of external influences that have led to this, also on the subject of the shortage of skilled workers, but also increasing requirements in recent years due to T. H. Luft, also that ultimately flanges or flanges are becoming more and more into focus as diffuse emission sources, that you have noticed or that the focus is ultimately shifting, that you really focus on it for justified safety reasons, as well as for reasons of cost efficiency, and that you attach great importance to the correct installation.

Simone Wilson

Mr. Rauben, we had said earlier, or you had said, that they exchanged ideas themselves, that they worked alone in a very disciplined manner and that they were only pioneers. Were there also critics' voices, did you hear anything about that?

Daniel Wauben

No, we didn't notice it at all. No, quite the opposite. Well, this has been accompanied positively so far.

Simone Wilson

And have other companies approached you in the meantime, perhaps even outside your cluster now, who have gotten wind of it and want to know what they have done and how they have done it?

Daniel Wauben

No, so the communication channel was as follows: we first communicated this internally within this working group and then also externally. Outside the network, no one has actually approached us yet, but within the network there are those who are also interested in the topic and can imagine joining standardization, as I call it.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, and do you already have an idea how you will deal with it? So now it's probably time to gain experience with the 4 companies, but that other companies join, are there any ideas on how to do that?

Daniel Wauben

Exactly, we would do that again internally with the 4 company representatives, who helped to design it, so to speak, that you bring it together closely, so that you are really on the same level, on the same level. No, so that if a 5.6., 7.8 company comes along, that the 4 who laid the foundation stone then also pick them up again and really take them with them in such a way that they are all back to the same standard. No, that's how it should go or that's how it will go.

Simone Wilson

Now perhaps once again addressed to the two of you, summarized from your respective different perspectives, the mutual recognition of this qualification, what does that mean for the region? That's also a bit of your topic, making this region strong, but also for the companies involved. So, what is the added value at the end of the day?

Daniel Wauben

For us, for our member companies, it's simply an increase in efficiency. No, you can simply standardize a topic through this merger, let's say, where where you say, there is a bit of work that I can save myself and maybe then saddle up again somewhere else. So that's already, I think, always a best case for us as a regional marketing initiative, no, if if something like that works and the companies can simply help themselves to a certain extent. Of course, that's not the basta issue, that's clear to us, we probably won't always be able to solve them as competitors, which our companies are, in close cooperation, but we can do it quite well with technical issues or something like that, and we think that this simply provides added value for everyone involved, no, which leads to free capacities again.

Simone Wilson

For other things. I would contradict you now, the flange connection is, I think, the blockbuster.

Christian Knollmann

If not for today.

Simone Wilson

Probably too, but from your perspective.

Christian Knollmann

Sometimes, yes, for us it is this substantial added value of safety for all companies, no, regardless of whether you are part of the initiative or not, no, because the partner companies used, of course, also work for other companies, now not only for companies in Camp Cologne, but that you then really say, you ultimately create a common safety culture, no, safety is in the foreground, no, also and that you really say, the claim is 0 leakage, every leak counts, should it come to that, it will be consistently tracked, but the basic premise is the avoidance of any leaks, that is the ultimate goal. And.

Simone Wilson

You have to say that this goal is achievable, it's not that it's a utopian goal.

Christian Knollmann

Absolutely also demonstrably achievable, that's so, yes.

Simone Wilson

And then maybe we'll look a little further into the future. So, I think we can already say that this initiative is a first important step. But if we now look ahead, the question is, what does this form of cooperation actually mean for the future of the industry? Here I would pick up again, this keyword coopetition, which is also used more often these days, because there is also a bit of an assumption that you can only make it together if you look into the future or if you look at how it has worked for you, would you confirm that in principle? How do you see this for other initiatives, possibly.

Christian Knollmann

Yes, from the point of view of safety, right? Of course, there are really other cases where you can apply something similar, where you can say, the safety idea is in the foreground and that you can find a way here. to work together to increase safety for everyone at the end of the day. Nevertheless, it's also in the past, no, if you look at Vision Zero, another popular example is the safety training that is necessary before every plant entry. The majority of the contents are the same. That is, no matter which company in the chemical industry you get access to, the requirements are largely the same. The safety level, the safety standard is the same. That means you can really be sure at the end of the day that you will enter the company safely and leave it safe at the end of the day.

Simone Wilson

And you, Mr. Bauth?

Daniel Wauben

I think that if you look at the whole thing in general, I myself have been with Camcologne since 2009, I have already experienced that the need for exchange has increased continuously in recent years. Maybe it also has to do with the fact that we have an increasing number of member companies, but I do think that there is simply a need for exchange, an increasing need for exchange on many topics and that we are increasingly happy to serve, no. So if I simply see the size of the working groups and the regularity of how they meet, it has already increased over, I would say, this has already increased over the last 1617 years, no. already shows that as a region you also want to move forward or work on it as part of the region and perhaps also simply perceive that other companies may also be doing meaningful things and that it is worth exchanging ideas about them. No, so in my perception that has already taken place more and more in recent years.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, and a sense of achievement is always good for you to be able to say that we succeeded, let's see if that doesn't steer us on another topic, no. So of course that helps better than how, if something fizzles out again. If you look into the future, where do you see the initiative in 5 years?

Daniel Wauben

Yes, good question, I hope that not only the initiative, but perhaps also other initiatives will grow out of it, because I already know from my colleague Antonio Link from Line del Basel that he has also talked internally about it, that another colleague from another area has already approached me and says that there is an interest in perhaps bringing something like this forward. Yes, so perhaps not only that the topic itself is growing, but simply also perhaps radiating to other subject areas, where you could start similar initiatives. So there, as I said, I always find it very nice when the company representatives then approach me and we can then just be the breeding ground or, as we just said, pave the way for the topics to continue to play. So for us, it's always yes, just always very nice to see that there are committed colleagues who simply work together to advance such topics.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, and maybe it will be the blockbuster after all, if it continues to become an industry-wide standard in Germany, i.e. 5 years.

Christian Knollmann

You have to see that, no, ultimately whether companies are part of the initiative or not, no, in principle the prerequisite of the Vera, we are subject to, are the same for everyone. And if you just take an example of how the prerequisite or the technical or regulatory framework conditions were then implemented in practice and think about whether it fits your own company with the processes or whether only partial elements or the core elements are taken out, right? At the end of the day, each company can evaluate that for itself, right? And if it only serves as an example in principle, how I would say that the regulatory requirements have been implemented in everyday practice in a legally secure manner in the end.

Simone Wilson

Looking into the future, I would be interested in you again in a very concrete way, we had looked a bit at other companies in Germany, then at the industry, but what does that look like within the company? So, when you say, I'm now looking 5 years ahead, you also have different locations, you are internationally active. How would that be scalable?

Christian Knollmann

Of course, the exchange of experiences also takes place. In other words, just as we did it in principle within the region, we also did it internally, right? And that's a process that is also ongoing and I think it's also established at quite a few companies, that at the end of the day, you learn lessons after every standstill and then share the results company-wide. that you then really leverage the synergies, because you don't have to, I'll say, make the same mistake twice, but also on the other hand, if something goes well, you can of course roll it out company-wide in principle on this possibility or via this possibility, no, that you then really repeat these, these positive examples at all locations.

Simone Wilson

You only started in the spring, will there be a review, will there be a feedback round after a certain period of time, what are the plans?

Christian Knollmann

In any case, we have said in principle that we will meet at least once a year within the initiative in order to ultimately exchange feedback on what we have agreed and the experience there as well. The whole thing will also be transferred back to the working group and also discussed jointly, insofar as you can really see that, it's a living process.

Simone Wilson

Finally, if you could give plant operators a recommendation based on the experience with the Flange Connections Working Group, what would it be?

Daniel Wauben

Yes, talk to each other, no, I can't say anything else now, after what we've discussed here in the last three-quarters of an hour. So I think that's the be-all and end-all, just to look beyond the company boundaries. So that's, as I just described, has also become much better. I was really surprised at the beginning when I found 29 started, how little that happens sometimes, no, on certain topics, you actually thought, oh yes, that, they know that anyway, or they, they know each other. I mean, sure, if I would say, with Braskem and Line of Basel, for example, who produce door to door, door to door, that's also the case, but if you go a few kilometers north to Leverkusen or something, then it looks different again. And I think we have already improved that in recent years and I would like to continue to recommend it to everyone or that's what we stand for at Camcolon, this networking and and and on certain topics simply exchange or exchange ideas with each other.

Christian Knollmann

And you, Mr. Knallmann, and I only have to add one more sentence to the fact that it is of course also essential that you have such a platform, ultimately at the end of the day, that maintains neutrality and where you can then in principle also exchange ideas. But when I make a recommendation, it is certainly that quality is meaningful and essential at the end of the day, and also that the creation of such a process provides clear structuring, but also practical orientation, that at the end of the day really creates tangible added value.

Simone Wilson

Yes, I'm curious to see where this leads. So I'm, I'm looking forward to what's to come. Yes, that's the end of our conversation. Mr. Knollmann, thank you very much for your openness, the insight into practice and the technical classification. Mr. Wauben, thank you for showing us how an industry network can help develop a solution or even a standard from a common challenge. Our conversation shows that the qualification of flange fitters remains an indispensable basis for successful turnarounds. However, it is also crucial how this qualification can be evaluated, proven and made comparable across company boundaries in practice. In my view, this is precisely the particular strength of the initiative. Several operators have jointly agreed on minimum requirements and are thus also taking joint responsibility for safe flange connections. We at IDT are also accompanying this development, from participation in testing standards to competence training and digital quality assurance in the turnaround. Because in the end, we are also concerned with the same goal: safe systems, reliable processes and assembly quality that everyone involved can rely on. Thank you very much for listening. Stay connected. See you next time at the IDT podcast for new perspectives and fresh impulses in industry and sealing technology.