Fluoropolymers: Durable, safe, recyclable

Simone Wilson

Hydrogen filling stations and industrial plants that would leak without PTFE seals, wind turbines that would corrode without fluorinated coatings. Something that lasts forever doesn't have to cause eternal damage. But can we use PFAS and other substances in such a way that they become part of the solution rather than the problem? To get to the bottom of this and other questions, I have invited two guests who look at the topic from different angles but with a common goal. Thank you for tuning in to the IDT podcast, which provides new perspectives and fresh ideas for industry and sealing technology. Yes, today, for once, I am in the studio without Jörg Skoda, our Head of Application Technology. But I am very much looking forward to talking to Dr. Achim Ilshöfer, Global Circular Economy Manager at materials manufacturer Covestro, CEM Ex Project Manager, and Chairman of the ISO Committee TC 61 SC 14 for Environmental Aspects of Plastics. and Dr. Marc Langeler, Head of the Central Technology Department at Stascol, a medium-sized company specializing in plastic sealing solutions for dynamic applications. Welcome! My name is Simone Wilson, I am CEO of sealing specialist IDT and I will be acting as moderator here in the studio. Yes, Mr. Ilshöfer, you are a strategic pioneer for the circular economy in the plastics industry. You are actively involved in standardization work, industry-specific initiatives, and international collaborations. If, as we heard here in March, the authorities are bringing a life cycle assessment into play at Pefers, I would be interested to know whether a life cycle automatically means a circular economy, or to put it another way, what do you understand by a circular economy?

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

That's a very complex question, but the life cycle or life cycle analysis, the consideration of the life of a material from the beginning, when the material is usually extracted from the earth, to waste and recycling at the end of the day, is what we refer to as the life cycle. This is also considered and standardized in various standards. In the field of life cycle analysis, it is the ISO 14000 series, and in the field of circular economy, it is the management standards in the field of circular economy that integrate LCA analysis with economic, ecological, and social considerations. So in this respect, the topic is connected from the outset and has a very exciting approach, considering that at every stage of the material, the material or product is also considered with different impact categories. Product impact categories are standardized in a life cycle analysis in such a way that, as I said, the circular economy gets the best out of it economically, but does not cause any ecological or social damage, and this can be measured, and everything that can be measured can also be controlled.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, but the circular economy basically goes one step further.

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

That's right. At the end of the day, it means that we reuse the products we no longer use and thus return raw materials that we extract from the earth or from the air, depending on whether they are, say, chemicals, back into the cycle. Today, most products are still landfilled or incinerated, used for energy. Or, at the end of the day, if you don't do it carefully, they are simply released into the environment. And that is also the problem, that most products that end up in the environment cause consequential damage, which in most cases we are only now recognizing. And that, as I said, is the focus of the circular economy, to reduce precisely this environmental damage and to recycle everything we use.

Simone Wilson

What I wasn't really aware of, however, is the fact that product developers actually think about what the cycle should look like and how the product can be recycled.

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

That is more or less the key to a good circular economy: designing products in such a way that the recycling step, or in terms of use, the repair step and reuse are already incorporated into the design. The better, the better. Most products today are not designed for a circular economy, but for a linear economy. And this linear economy is what we have been doing for the last 50, 100, 150 years. We throw it away at the end. But if I design the product in such a way that I know how to return the respective components of the product back into the cycle and combine them with the technologies, because there is no... We used to watch "Back to the Future," but there is no flux reactor where I can throw everything in and it might turn it into energy or even new materials. That doesn't exist. This means that we have to recreate separate recycling systems for each material component, but also separate repair capabilities for each product category. Our parents didn't throw away the TV when it stopped working, they took it to be repaired. And these are precisely the mechanisms that we have partly forgotten, where we now also have to take certain regulatory requirements into account in certain procedures in design for recycling, which was the question in design for the circular economy, which we already had to consider.

Simone Wilson

When I read up on it, it struck me as being a sophisticated art form, so to speak. Mr. Langeler, I understand that the life cycle is an essential component, but it does not constitute a circular economy. Nevertheless, since 2015, you and your team have been working on a PTFE recycling process that reuses production residues. For you, PTFE recycling is not an end in itself, but a building block within the life cycle approach and thus an important step on the way to a circular economy. So, as you just said, life cycle, production, use, disposal, and ideally reuse. What was the trigger 10 years ago that led Staskohl to get involved in PTFE recycling, and what have you learned during that time?

Dr. Marc Langela

So, Staskohl manufactures sealing elements for dynamic applications based on PTFE, special materials, and we produce our own semi-finished products. During the mechanical production of these sealing elements, approximately one-third ends up as production waste. Back in 2015, we asked ourselves: does this really have to be waste? Does it have to be disposed of? Does it have to be incinerated or sent to landfill? Or could it possibly be recovered and returned to production, so that we could reduce production waste to virtually zero? And that was the reason why we started grinding PTFE in 2015, first with very, let's say, naive methods, such as a coffee grinder, then with increasingly sophisticated methods, in order to achieve the grain size required to be able to return the PTFE to the production process.

Simone Wilson

Hmm, and what did you learn during that time, what were the results, what did you learn and experience?

Dr. Marc Langela

During that time, we learned that it is very difficult to restore PTFE, if I may get technical, let's say 2030 micrometers is the particle size of the raw material. And you have to get back to that in the molding process. And we have a very good partner in Norman Esser Process Solutions, which is part of the Norman Esser Group, and we carried out some tests in 2021. Then the whole thing dragged on a bit, because I have to admit that it wasn't really that urgent. I also think it's good that this whole Pefas discussion has motivated us to do this not only for our own benefit and for the sake of conserving resources, but also for the sake of regulations, yes, or rather to ensure that PTFE no longer ends up in the environment and that it is recycled as quickly as possible. That's when the whole thing picked up a bit of momentum. In 2021, we conducted trials that were significantly more successful. We use PTFE in two different processes. One is the cold pressing process, which means that PTFE is pressed and then sintered. The other is the hot pressing process. In both processes, we can return up to 25 percent of the PTFE to the production process, and in the hot pressing process, up to 50 percent or more. And these are exactly the quantities that are generated in production. This means that we can return virtually all of the waste back into the production process.

Simone Wilson

A pragmatic solution, Mr. Ilshöfer?

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

That's great. In this case, we are talking about pre-consumer or post-industrial material, and we do something similar in the area of mattress foams. We know exactly what's in it, and the advantage is that we design the products and can also return them to the process. The difficulty, and therefore the regulation or social desire, is not necessarily focused on our industrial waste, but rather on the mountain of waste that we all generate in the end products. And yet, in terms of your findings, the insights you have gained, how can I return it, these are very important opportunities to expand this into the post-consumer sector. At the moment, we still simply don't know what's in post-consumer waste because many producers add different fillers and additives. They all have their justification, but we as companies are also reaching our limits because we really don't know what these compositions look like, and the composition determines the function. Ultimately, this means that if I want to guarantee something, in your case the tightness of the component, I have to know exactly what is in it if I use recycled material.

Simone Wilson

But composition is often also a unique selling point.

Dr. Marc Langela

That is, of course, the advantage of our products, because we know exactly what material the product is made of and can reuse it in a targeted manner. Of course, as you mentioned in the example of televisions, there are so many different plastic components in them that sorting them all out and separating them by type becomes a real challenge.

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

Yes, they are not yet designed for precisely this collection, separation, and material recycling. And value is a combination of quantity and quality, which is still a very difficult process today.

Simone Wilson

Now I know that you don't want to keep this knowledge to yourself, of course, but are also looking to the future, especially with what you've learned about PTFE recycling and the experiments you've conducted. What does that look like?

Dr. Marc Langela

Well, we have already been approached by numerous companies that are also in the PTFE industry or process PTFE, and we are happy to share our knowledge because we simply want to initiate the process of PTFE recycling, independently of us, because we are not a recycling company, but we do it for ourselves. we want other companies to do it for themselves, for themselves, for the environment. And also to prevent PFAS from entering the environment. That's why we are completely open and happy to share our results and our experiences, and anyone is welcome to contact us.

Simone Wilson

I'm going to digress again, because this is of course of interest to many listeners, as there was another status update from the ECHA on the subject of PFAS in August. But regarding the restriction procedure, which has already been touched upon a little, they have a very clear position, namely to replace PFAS where technically feasible, phase it out where possible, and use it where it remains irreplaceable. Why do you believe this differentiated approach is necessary?

Dr. Marc Langela

This is necessary because piston compressors, for example, use sealing elements based on PTFE. We also have our own test bench at our premises, where we have tested various other materials. Important for piston compressors: Gas temperatures are high, which means you need a material that has a certain temperature resistance. PTFE has this property. However, other thermoplastic materials, such as polyether ketone or polyphenylene sulfide, also have this property. But if you use these materials without PTFE, you won't get the running times and service life you need. The sealing efficiency is also significantly reduced. We can also demonstrate this on our test bench, where we only achieve about one-fifth of the running time, at most, with other thermoplastics that are not PTFE-based. And then there are also two to three times higher leakages. And if you think about all the biogas plants or breweries, CO2 compression, if higher leakage occurs because I save on PTFE in the wrong place, save on fluorinated plastics, then of course I have not done the environment any favors.

Simone Wilson

But you also just said that innovation and development sometimes simply need pressure. So, I wonder what could help to make public discourse on topics such as PEFAS, but also the circular economy, which is likely to be just as controversial, more objective and simply more informed.

Dr. Marc Langela

Yes, I think that there are also, let's say, many, many opinions circulating that lack a certain data basis, and everyone has an opinion, but we should look at the scientific facts to see what is feasible, including what the real problem is with P. D. F. E., for example. I have been on so many committees on the subject of the P. D. F. E. ban, where people from other companies, engineers, have said that of course we have to get rid of the toxic P. D. F. E. But P.D.F.E. is not toxic; it is physiologically neutral and is also used in medical applications. The problem with P.D.F.E. is its durability, which is also an advantage because I can process it, I can recycle it afterwards, I can reprocess it and reprocess it again, and there is hardly any thermal degradation, i.e., no measurable thermal degradation. In recycling tests, we have also seen that mechanical properties, friction, and wear remain the same, even if I process it several times. And these are simply facts that show that recycling is possible. And I simply hope that we make decisions based on facts and not on fears.

Simone Wilson

Mhm, and what is the discourse on the circular economy like?

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

It's exactly the same. It's about data, it's about information, what's in the product. And that's why it's so important for us in the chemical industry to prepare digital product passports in such a way that they are also manageable. And they asked about the pressure: "How much pressure do we need?" The pressure is ultimately there. We all make up society, and we actually elect politicians so that they don't increase bureaucracy, but rather design regulations in such a way that they actually benefit us as people. And that's why I believe that we all need to work together to share the information, the relevant information that we can pass on for better recycling, not necessarily in terms of protecting competitive know-how. We always have to be careful, but we really need to think about how we can share material declarations, the various information on circular economy metrics, how much recycled material is in a product, how much environmental impact or product environmental footprint it has. These are all pieces of information that we need in the transformation to digitalization, and many companies are still in the very early stages of this. It's not that we are all fully digitized, but it is a medium, an opportunity in the value chains. Then we are back to lifecycle analysis or lifecycle assessment. Providing the necessary information to partners, as you just said, so that we can move forward, pull together, and avoid materials ending up in the trash at the end of the day and being disposed of instead of recycled.

Simone Wilson

I would say the keyword is digitalization as a driver. Even now, when I hear this from the perspective of small and medium-sized businesses, I get a little nervous because I think, for heaven's sake, who is supposed to take care of all these materials and so on and so forth? I don't have the manpower to do that. On the other hand, it has to work somehow. So how could it succeed?

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

Well, I believe that, at the level of information, enough recycled materials are already being produced if the recycler knows how much filler is in there and what kind of filler it is. It doesn't have to be communicated down to the gram, what I just referred to as know-how. But it's very difficult. Let's take the television we just had, or we could take the automobile, or whatever. It's a multi-component system assembled from different materials, plastics, metals, circuit boards, containing a lot of critical materials, some of which are very valuable and are already being extracted from slag today, but that's it. All the carbon and different compounds are burned for energy. That's not a circular economy; that's generating CO2, and that brings us back to the second discourse alongside the circular economy, namely climate protection. So, the two are directly related, and we need to make sure we have a good grasp of these metrics. The question was, oh my goodness, how can small and medium-sized enterprises manage this? Most of our suppliers are small and medium-sized enterprises. These are not large companies that have departments like ours to take care of this. That is why it is important that we standardize this, that we also write standards into regulations where every ERP system, regardless of whether it is SAP, Oracle, Navision, or whatever system you work with, has a merchandise management system today. Even a medium-sized company can't do without it today. And material flows are already stored there. You just have to bring it all together intelligently. This means that the models, the information models, must be adaptable and flexible enough that they can be imported into these software systems without great financial expense and then handled automatically. It is important that everyone has control over what information they pass on. And we are generally not fans of central information databases, because that is our know-how. But we have no objection to passing on information to customers. In some cases, we open up completely if we have a confidentiality agreement with the customer. It's all manageable digitally. We are not there yet, but we are working hard on it, because regulatory pressure is also pushing for certain product categories that generate a lot of waste. Textiles, for example, and tires, which will also have to have product passports in the future in order to link these circular economy issues with climate protection issues in Europe. Every nation has set itself the goal of becoming carbon neutral. I can only achieve this if I measure things, take a standardized approach, and work towards a goal, towards a trajectory. And I am convinced that, as I said, digitalization is a key, a catalyst, not a pressure medium or a trigger, but really a catalyst for passing on this information much more easily and automatically, without needing a lot of staff to write the data back into data sheets for formatting. This will no longer be feasible in the future; it is far too expensive and is becoming increasingly complex. Yes, it is becoming increasingly complex, which is why digitalization is key.

Simone Wilson

Mr. Langeler, what would help you to expand on the step you have taken? What would you need specifically? I just heard here, and I don't want to say the government, no. At the beginning, it was also about the fact that we ourselves have it in our hands. But what would help you?

Dr. Marc Langela

Well, we actually have all the information we need about our products. Customers send us piston rod seals and other components back, which we can then repair. We then have the components back in our hands and can use the production numbers on the components to trace back which material we used, i.e., which mixture we have in front of us, and then use it again in a pure form. Of course, this is only possible with appropriately clean applications. If it is a hydrogen compressor that compresses hydrogen coming from the electrolyzer, then you naturally have ultra-pure hydrogen. This pure hydrogen does not contaminate the sealing element, which can then be reused, creating a true circular economy by manufacturing the sealing element, using it at the customer's site, and then returning it to production. That is our wishful thinking for the future. Yes, and there are enough applications out there, whether it's pure hydrogen, pure nitrogen, or ultra-pure gases that are compressed, where this is possible. In the oil and gas industry, you often get sealing elements back that have to be aired out for three days before you can even take them apart. And of course, the contamination is so high that unfortunately the materials are no longer recyclable.

Simone Wilson

Now you are in the middle class, and I could say that you are in an advantageous situation because you have everything under control. But do you still consider the scenario that Mr. Ilshöfer has painted to be realistic?

Dr. Marc Langela

Definitely, definitely. It would be nice to know not only what mixture this plastic component has, which I take out of the TV or the car, but also to know what plastic it is made of, without having to carry out a complex test, so that I can at least collect the plastics sorted by type and then recycle them together again accordingly. And I think that all companies, as Mr. Hetzenhöfer has already said, we all have E.R.P. systems, we all have the data in our companies, so why not use this data to clearly identify which component and which plastic we are dealing with here?

Simone Wilson

That sounds very simple right now.

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

It's not easy, so it's normal, as I said, it requires standards, and whether you believe me or not, even in digitization, there are still many standards missing in architecture. European standardizers are working together on this European security structure, because we are talking about data exchange, and data is data, regardless of whether it is sensitive or not. I would say that opportunities for cyber hackers or other points of entry must all be relatively well programmed, digitally programmed, programmable, and programmed architecturally. And at the end of the day, the data is the asset, the real content, and that's where it's also important, but standards are still lacking in many areas. When you talk about the seal and the stress on the seal over its life cycle, many chemicals probably come into contact with the edge, not necessarily with the sealing element itself, but with the edge, precisely with this sealing element. And in most cases, unfortunately, they also settle in. And of course, it is also informative to know what the seal looks like, or rather, digital identification features come into play again, again, again, again. We have these at our disposal, again, again, again, again, where we say, can I recycle part of the seal, is it contaminated, and these contaminants are extremely important to us as a large recycler. We are not allowed to put contaminated materials, for example, or materials contaminated with chemicals, back on the market. There are also laws in place, which means that we have to test every batch, which generates enormous costs. And that makes mechanical recycling extremely difficult, extremely difficult and limited in terms of the availability of raw materials. That's why post-consumer recycling has to be done; there's no question about it. Pre-consumer recycling, excuse me, post-consumer recycling is the icing on the cake, it's really the next step in advancing these recycling technologies so that the molecules can be separated again, and that can't be done mechanically, it can only be done physically or chemically. Both physical and mechanical are also physical recycling technologies, but solvents and chemical separation options are still used, some of which have not yet been developed. We are working on this, and depending on the type of television or product category, so many components and materials have been brought together to perform this function that it is not easy to separate them again.

Simone Wilson

Covestro wants to focus entirely on the circular economy and become a driving force for the entire plastics industry. This raises two questions for me. First, what can we learn from Covestro, but also, where does the plastics industry stand today?

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

Well, I think what we have done very well in recent years is that we strategically implemented this way of thinking very early on in our strategy, also in our cooperation with our customers. What you just mentioned is a vision, and a vision takes an enormous amount of time. So I am realistic today and say that we will not be fully circular before 2050 because so many economic players have to be involved, mainly those in the waste disposal sector. Today, these are recycling companies, no longer waste disposal companies. Nevertheless, they have too little breathing space, they are also running out of money, and if that doesn't work, we won't get any raw materials. And also from the perspective of what we can learn from Covestro, it is important to talk to the boss very early on in the strategy departments, even in medium-sized companies, about what we can do, because every drop hollows the stone. And only if we all work together will it work, because, as I said, the supplier industries are just as much in demand, starting with the packaging plastics manufacturers, the seal manufacturers, the container builders, who already have recyclates in the steel in the various containers today. But we require the same quality, if not even higher, and that requires new technologies. That's why the plastics industry is at the beginning of a radical change. That was the second question. Where does the plastics industry stand? It will take at least 2030 years before we move from packaging plastics to truly durable plastics that can be used for 1020, 3050 years in automobiles and construction, and until they come back, the design has to be effective. That's why it's so important, and now we're back at the beginning of the whole conversation. Design for repairability, reusability, and recycling are essential so that we're not at the same level in 50 years, saying we haven't achieved much. So we really need to get better at this.

Simone Wilson

Now, I see that a little differently, because I would say that small and medium-sized enterprises are still, or often feel like, fighting a losing battle. However, as we have already said here, small and medium-sized enterprises still play a central role in the success of the circular economy. A recent study by the V.D.I. Competence Center for Circular Economy and Resource Efficiency has shown that 75% of CAMUs are already implementing resource-saving measures, as you are, Dr. Langelaar. Nevertheless, truly circular business models are rare. My interpretation is that the circular economy feels like Mount Everest and people often don't know where to start. How do we come together, and I'm addressing both of you here? How do you get started, how do you get involved, how do you combine the grand vision with pragmatic action, how do you succeed, how do we get it together?

Dr. Marc Langela

I think the difficult thing is to really unite the database, yes, and also to have the openness to share data, i.e., to be willing to disclose data, even if companies, for example, let's just say S.A.P., all companies used S.A.P. SAP systems are always tailored to specific companies, so the challenge is to generalize the database in such a way that data can be collected centrally and then used to identify which plastic is in which product. That will be a major challenge, and I think all branches of industry will have to pull together.

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

Yes, and if you look at Mount Everest, for example, it means setting up base camps together and hiking up together. Because, as I said, we won't climb the mountain in one step, but we have to work together collaboratively on precisely these parts of the value chain. As I said, we can't do this alone. We have to integrate the waste disposal companies, we have to integrate the users in terms of reparability, we have to inform them. There are so many people in the value chain, so many partners are needed to raise the base camp, so to speak, one meter higher each time. And that's why I said quite honestly that Fully Circular won't happen next year. On the contrary, it will depend on the regulatory systems of waste management, the different guidelines that exist in Europe, China, and America. There are different speeds, which unfortunately are not the same all over the world, even if we say that this is necessary so that what we have in the earth, in the air, let's say, is not further polluted. And that's why it's important that we work on this together.

Simone Wilson

But mindset, that was touched on a little earlier, customer expectations.

Dr. Marc Langela

I want to ask the question about customers.

Simone Wilson

Passing the buck, but also your own mindset, how important is that?

Dr. Marc Langela

The question is whether companies are prepared to do so. Yes, and I would say there are 22 possibilities, either pressure from the government or pressure from, let's say, regulatory, i.e., legal requirements, or pressure from customers. To do this, the customer must.

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

From the market, yes, exactly.

Dr. Marc Langela

Because customers must also be willing to spend more money to buy a product. Because they know that this product can be recycled, whereas supplier B's product cannot be recycled, even if it is cheaper. Of course, customers must also be willing to invest more money. And in the telecommunications industry in particular, there are companies, such as mobile phone manufacturers, that deliberately design their products so that they cannot be repaired. Yes, while other companies advertise their green credentials, we design our product so that it is easy to repair and can be refurbished again and again. Of course, it costs a little more, but in return you have done something for the environment, and the customer must also be willing to pay for that.

Simone Wilson

Yes, so what I take away from this is that the circular economy and sustainability are basically a marathon, but in the sense of a relay race, because it requires a lot of players. That means if you assume that you can just do it in a sprint, it's not going to work. Then the question is, how do we stick with it? How do we manage not to give up, to say that this is so important that we have to invest in it and we simply have to stick with it over the long term?

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

Yes, as Mr. Langeler already said, we need to proceed step by step, raise the base camp, and see where there is economic potential for each of us, but also to create this ecological opportunity for competitiveness in such a way that, at the end of the day, we as end consumers also know that the product is truly more sustainable. Then we have it in our hands to achieve precisely the differentiation we want, without the need for regulation to intervene and say, "I forbid certain things." None of us wants that. But at the end of the day, if people cannot make things right, with the understanding that they are doing something good, then we have to set boundaries somewhere. I forbid certain things, which is something none of us want. But at the end of the day, if people cannot fix it, based on the understanding that they are doing something good, then we have to set some kind of framework or guidelines that say this need for reparability and recyclability must be met. Otherwise, the system won't work. So if the economic, ecological, and social components don't increase somewhere, many companies won't even tackle this?

Simone Wilson

Yes, it's definitely a very complex topic, and it's quite possible that some people may feel a little lost in the jungle of life cycle analysis or the circular economy. Nevertheless, I think today's discussion is definitely encouraging. At the end of our podcast, our guests traditionally have a wish. Now I'm very curious to hear what you wish for the future, for the environment, for industry, for our sector, and for our customers. Mr. Langeler, Mr. Langeler has...

Dr. Marc Langela

I'll have to think about that first, but basically, I would wish that consumers would simply focus more on environmental awareness. Yes, because we are in B2B. Business, we do it, we do it for the environment, for ourselves, to reduce waste. We don't do it for money, I have to be honest, because our recycling process is roughly 0 to 0. It's maybe, maybe a small black 0, but we don't save any money by doing it. But if it's possible to avoid waste while maintaining the same product characteristics, which is always the point you mentioned, then we're happy to do it. Yes, and I think the big changes you mentioned can only be achieved if there is a regulatory framework, which none of us want, because I believe that the end consumer should be intelligent enough to recognize that product A, for example, is significantly better for the environment than product B. Yes, if they inform themselves, because the information is also available online. You can also find out more when you want to buy a product. So, if you want to buy something, what is the best alternative from an ecological point of view? And that's what I would like to see. If I could make a wish right now, yes, tomorrow is Christmas, I would wish that people would simply inform themselves before buying a product about which product has the best ecological footprint and then mainly opt for such products or include this criterion as a key factor in their decision-making.

Simone Wilson

Thank you very much, Mr. Ilshöfer.

Dr. Achim Ilzhöfer

Well, first of all, I wish that we could become more peaceful in the world and that the uncertainties we currently face would disappear. which, I would say, are causing many companies to revert, not to a path of sustainability, but to a mode of survival, that peace will lead us humans to think again, as Mr. Langeler just said, that we actually only have one planet and that at the end of the day we are all sitting on the same planet. And if we don't start thinking about that and also use autocratic, let's say, non-fact-based reporting or information, but really apply facts and standards, then nothing will come of it. So for me, the greatest wish would be, as I said, if we could get back on the path to a more sustainable economy and consumption and gradually improve it so that we really combine the circular economy and climate protection.

Simone Wilson

Thank you very much.

Dr. Marc Langela

I would like to agree with Mr. Itzenhofer again. Because I would say that projects such as improving environmental protection processes so that products can be recycled are long-term projects. I can't do that in a year. I have to think about where I want to be in 10, 20, or 30 years in terms of recycling our products. And that only works if companies have the security to be able to focus on such issues. If companies don't know what the situation will be like next year, the year after, or in five years, then they won't devote resources to such projects. And I think that's the point: we need more security in the economy. Where is the journey headed? What will the landscape look like in 10 or 20 years? And what issues can we focus on today to make them a reality?

Simone Wilson

Yes, so let's get out of the struggle for survival. Mr. Langeler, Mr. Ilshöfer, thank you very much for the open and multifaceted discussion. It has become clear that longevity can be sustainable and that the circular economy is also a solution. We have also heard that it cannot be done without support. Cooperation is key to success, and innovation takes time. That is why I hope that regulation leaves room for development and that there is open communication about challenges and opportunities. If you enjoyed this episode of our podcast or have any suggestions, we would love to hear from you. I will sign off for today and thank you for listening. Stay connected and tune in again to the IDT podcast, which provides new perspectives and fresh ideas for industry and sealing technology.